19

So the Schengen Area wikipedia says

three European microstates – Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican City – can be considered de facto participants.

Thus, for citizens of countries that can enter the Schengen area visa-free for up to 90 days,(i.e US, Canada), would time spent in these countries count against their allowed 90 days? Even if these microstates aren't part of Schengen?

Also, according to the article, Andorra seems to do have immigration borders... So, for example, if I am a US citizen, will going to Andorra, stop the Schengen visit (meaning there will be an exit stamp on your passport)?

Would, for example, a US citizen have any trouble re-entering Schengen from Andorra, given he still has some days left of the 90-days visa-free Schengen time?

Improve this question
10
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Mark Mayo
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 14:33
  • 2
    @GayotFow Do you have a reference for that? I can neither find anything in the Schengen Border Code, nor in German government regulation that would suggest so. Especially in the case of Andorra I'm pretty sure that days there don't count as they still maintain some form of border control and both the government of Andorra and this Luxemburg consulate suggest that you need a multi-entry Schengen visa if you are a visa national and want to visit Andorra.
    – neo
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 15:36
  • 1
    My hunch would be that de jure, the days may not count, but they do in a de facto sense.
    – CMaster
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 15:43
  • 1
    @GayotFow Sure but why should traveling Schengen-Andorra-Schengen count as an exit/entry for visa nationals but not as an exit/entry for non-visa nationals? There are no differences made for any other other purpose so I would be really surprised if there would be one here. I have just provided the last example as an hint that Andorra is not part of Schengen in any way. But I agree that you should refrain from maxing out your days in this way if you want a smooth departure from the Schengen area as proving the exact duration of your stay might be difficult in practice.
    – neo
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 15:49
  • 2
    @GayotFow I'm not aware of any relevant leaked document.
    – neo
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 17:02

3 Answers 3

Reset to default
11

When you enter one of the three micro-states, the Schengen 90 day clock pauses during your time there. It resumes when you exit the micro-state and reenter the Schengen zone.

Also, you cannot 'refresh' your Schengen clock in the micro-states because they have local rules that act to prevent it. In San Marino for example, foreigners staying longer than 30 days must apply for a residence permit and these are not given to visitors.

But indeed, each day in a micro-state is a day out of the zone and the 90/180 rule is affected accordingly.

Problems will arise when the visitor ultimately leaves the zone and must undergo a Schengen exit inspection. At this point the person may be asked to prove that they are not an overstayer and the border guard will be entitled to see hard evidence in the form of official documentation. There was a case where an individual attempted to show that his mobile phone registered to a tower outside of the zone and this failed obviously: radio waves have no respect for nation borders but also one could mail the SIM card to a friend in a far away land, put in a phone where it registers to the tower and then mail it back. Apparently hotel receipts can be too easily forged to be successful as evidence.

What the border guard will want to see is a passport stamp from the local constabulary. But the constabulary is under no obligation to issue one, so success is down to personal impact and articulation skills.

Source: Question put directly to Elspeth Guild 6 June 2016, (DT 1568 Understanding Schengen Visas).

Your questions...

Also, according to the article, Andorra seems to do have immigration borders... So, for example, if I am a US citizen, will going to Andorra, stop the Schengen visit

Per the above, yes if you go to Andorra the Schengen clock is paused.

(meaning there will be an exit stamp on your passport)?

In the normal case you will have no exit stamp and be unable to provide satisfactory evidence of your time in and out of the zone. As explained you can approach the local constabulary and TRY to get the entry and exit stamps you need.

Improve this answer
5
  • I assume that the same logic applies to Disney cruises and fishing expeditions that board passengers in a Schengen port and sail around the Med for a few days.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented Jun 12, 2016 at 1:37
  • I am somewhat skeptical about that assumption. The USA income tax rules do not credit time in international waters as out of the USA. I would not be surprised if the cruise counted against the 90 days, at least until a stop in a non-Schengen port.
    – Andrew Lazarus
    Commented Jun 12, 2016 at 2:32
  • 2
    @AndrewLazarus, that would make a great question for the site. For example if the US time starts when the ship enters territorial waters, but stops when it leaves the territorial waters. It would be an interesting question and might attract some well-informed answers. Please consider it.
    – Gayot Fow
    Commented Jun 12, 2016 at 2:38
  • 1
    An entry stamp is proof you entered on a particular day. But an exit stamp ninety days later is not proof you didn't exit and re-enter in between.
    – WGroleau
    Commented Dec 10, 2017 at 21:36
  • To be more specific, the Andorrans are not stamping passports. Not even looking at them. You can ask them to stamp yours, but you could walk around the block and exit immediately and no one would know.
    – WGroleau
    Commented Mar 31, 2018 at 14:05
1

In 2000, France, Spain, and Andorra signed an agreement which seems to me to indicate that in practice, going to Andorra is the same as going to a country that is officially Schengen. But I've seen a few websites saying you can stay in tourist status for 183 days.

Improve this answer
1
  • I've studied that document more carefully and conclude that (1) it doesn't address the Schengen 90/180 issue and (2) it may not even be in effect (for example, it says no one will be permitted to enter Andorra without a valid travel document, but the reality is that they are not checking).
    – WGroleau
    Commented Mar 31, 2018 at 14:02
-1

Since the implementation of the 90/180 rule is based on

  • Schengen entry and exit stamps

assume that the full days in these microstate countries will be included in the Schengen clock where no Schengen exit/entry stamps exist when checked by any border or consulate official.

EU relations with Andorra, Monaco and San Marino 2012

  • Andorra 2.2.2
    • not within Schengen area
    • visas conditions same as Schengen, accepts Schengen visa
  • Monaco 2.3.2
    • within Schengen area
    • external controls carried out by France
    • resident permits same a Schengen visas
  • San Marino 2.4.2
    • outside of Schengen area
    • no border controls (no Schengen exit / enter stamps)
    • citizens treated as Italian inside Italy
Improve this answer
1
  • 4
    I don't understand why you're randomly italicizing words. It makes your post harder to read.
    – David Richerby
    Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 9:34

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .