Timeline for US citizen travelling with non-US citizen child who was denied boarding by KLM for our travel to USA
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
20 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| Dec 2, 2022 at 0:09 | comment | added | phoog | @Joshua which argument? About the airline and birth certificates or about using passport cards for flying to the US from abroad? | |
| Dec 1, 2022 at 22:35 | comment | added | Joshua | @phoog: Your argument is for naught because if she manages to show up at an entry point somehow (like say a Canada-US entrance station) the thing flips the other way around. (If the parents didn't have reliable identification of some form it would be a different matter.) | |
| Dec 1, 2022 at 22:09 | comment | added | phoog | ... any other secure evidence of US citizenship that is covered by Interpol's database of lost and stolen travel documents, but there's no way a court would require the US to allow airlines to accept US birth certificates (which are easy to forge and are not definitive proof of US citizenship), much less foreign ones (which are even less reliable evidence of US citizenship because of the factual analysis necessary to establish whether a foreign-born child acquires US citizenship). | |
| Dec 1, 2022 at 22:06 | comment | added | phoog | @Joshua the only constitutional claim here is against the US government for putting in place the rules that require private companies to verify travel documents before boarding US citizens on flights to the US. But that claim is doomed to fail. The carrier needs a way of determining whether a passenger is in fact a US citizen (otherwise anyone could make that claim in order to board a flight to the US), and that way is a US passport. Now I suppose there's probably a good case to be made that the constitution should require the US to accept passport cards and enhanced driver's licenses and | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 15:28 | history | edited | Joshua | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 24, 2021 at 5:00 | comment | added | user29788 | Goodness, if I could vote this answer down multiple times I would, on the basis of the misguidedness of the poster in the above comment thread. KLM isnt bound by the US Constitution in any way, shape or form. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:35 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | Your argument is simply of no practical use to the OP, who wants denied boarding compensation rather than an inevitably doomed course of years of public interest litigation aimed at striking down an entire area of government regulation you believe to be an abomination. It's simply not economically viable to file a federal lawsuit in US court over this. You've also agreed in the contract of carriage to be responsible for having valid travel documents, so claiming to be a US citizen without those documents is pointless. The possible claim is because of KLM's (false?) insistence there was no ESTA | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:19 | comment | added | Joshua | @ZachLipton: Ignorance of the law is held as no excuse. Apply that principle here. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:14 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | How would that help the OP at all? What judge is going to rule that an airline must board a child who presents a German passport and what is presumably a German birth certificate (the later application for a CRBA implies she wasn't born in the US) to an airline employee should be entitled to board a flight to the US based on, what, a verbal claim by a parent that the child is a US citizen? There might be a claim for EC 261 compensation here, though actually proving the ESTA was valid could easily be impossible, but there's no credible claim to invalidate all of the US travel doc regulations. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:08 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | I also have no idea why "the carriers will start pushing back" or how your proposed system would practically work. Right now, the carrier is supposed to check whether someone has one of the "Required Documents for Entry to the United States" when deciding whether to permit boarding. You seem to want to replace that with a system where the carrier somehow accepts and assesses evidence of US Citizenship in any form. Why would carriers want every one of their agents around the world suddenly involved in untangling complex citizenship claims instead of simply checking documents off a list? | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:08 | comment | added | Joshua | @ZachLipton: On the other hand this question asks what the compensation for this fiasco should be. Arguing it before a judge who is quite capable of ruling the law is unconstitutional is not obviously futile. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 3:05 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | You seem to be conflating what you think the law should be with the practical reality faced by travelers by air to the US right now, which is that if you present yourself at the ticket counter as a US Citizen without the required valid travel documents, you will be denied boarding. If you argue with airline employees that they should be following your interpretation of the US Constitution and ignoring US regulations and their corporate policy, you'll simply be wasting everyone's time. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 2:59 | comment | added | Joshua | It is actually unconstitutional for the US govt to require a US Citizen enter by use of a US passport at all; and if you managed to arrive at an entry point with reasonable evidence of US Citizenship they dare not turn one away; but they continue to pressure the carriers to do so. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 2:56 | comment | added | Joshua | @ZachLipton: I suppose you missed it. The Carrier Information Guide is requiring an unconstitutional action of the carrier. The carrier is required by constitutional law to ignore it in such a case. I am already aware of the situation and it is an abomination. The US govt. is ordering private corporations to violate the constitution and hiding behind them. It it high time it was put an end to; and here's an open-and-shut case to do so with. One loss by a carrier and the carriers will start pushing back. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 2:05 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | I'd encourage you to consult the Carrier Information Guide, which ultimately sets out the minimum policies KLM needs to follow to comply with US regulations, specifically the section "Required Documents for Entry to the United States." | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 2:00 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | ESTA is not required for US Citizens, no, but a US passport (or a handful of other documents that don't apply here in unusual situations like a boarding letter issued by a US consulate, Merchant Mariner Credential, military ID and orders, a UN Laissez-Passer) is. If you don't present one of those documents, KLM will not let you board no matter how much you claim to be a US Citizen. The child was traveling on a German passport, so KLM was obliged to ensure she had a valid ESTA or US visa; the ticket counter can't possibly adjudicate any claim to US Citizenship and is prohibited from doing so. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 1:18 | comment | added | Joshua | @ZachLipton: Even a cursory Google search reveals that ESTA is not required for US Citizens. Or are you saying that perchance KLM denied boarding of its own at the last minute, which is an even easier case. | |
| Mar 24, 2021 at 0:28 | comment | added | Zach Lipton | How should the airline "know this?" Check-in agents don't interpret citizenship laws and don't care about the Constitution; they look for valid travel documents from a list. Any airline would be absolutely correct to deny boarding in this circumstance without a valid ESTA if a US passport or other valid travel document isn't presented at check-in. The issue here is that KLM denied boarding claiming there was no valid ESTA, while the US Government apparently says there always was a valid ESTA. | |
| Mar 23, 2021 at 21:01 | history | edited | Joshua | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Mar 23, 2021 at 20:56 | history | answered | Joshua | CC BY-SA 4.0 |